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Post by elliotberton on Nov 26, 2018 13:17:45 GMT -5
Whether to put in sub to serve is always a tricky decision. To my untutored eyes, it seemed like Serena's serve was giving Wisconsin more trouble than Emily's.
Also, back to Nyline's initial point, while I doubt we were out of subs, Coach may have wanted to save a substitution at that point as the game was in deuce, and who knew when it was going to end. He could have been preserving subs so that we could continue the Cathey for Leath substitution.
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Post by seeyajohn on Nov 26, 2018 16:04:36 GMT -5
So I decided to investigate this notion of the used up substitutions. It seems that was the problem. With Taylor unable to play six rotations, the team has a 4 substitution jump because of the extra necessary insertion of Allyson for Taylor in the front row. That extremely limits the use of serving specialists. So, in set 5 because of the subbing and replacing of players we had Blossom/Parker (4), Hampton/Reed (4), Leath/Cathey (4), earlier Sciorra/Gray (1) totaling 13. Then I think there were 2 more counted when Serena returned when Kaitlyn moved to the back row. That is listed in the play-by-play as a Gray for Hord substitution. That whole area of the libero playing for both middles leaves me confused on this point. In any case, PSU had used all its substitutions or was very near to having used them all. So, no matter how loud I yelled at my TV for Emily, it wasn't going to happen!
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Post by elliotberton on Nov 26, 2018 21:07:10 GMT -5
So I decided to investigate this notion of the used up substitutions. It seems that was the problem. With Taylor unable to play six rotations, the team has a 4 substitution jump because of the extra necessary insertion of Allyson for Taylor in the front row. That extremely limits the use of serving specialists. So, in set 5 because of the subbing and replacing of players we had Blossom/Parker (4), Hampton/Reed (4), Leath/Cathey (4), earlier Sciorra/Gray (1) totaling 13. Then I think there were 2 more counted when Serena returned when Kaitlyn moved to the back row. That is listed in the play-by-play as a Gray for Hord substitution. That whole area of the libero playing for both middles leaves me confused on this point. In any case, PSU had used all its substitutions or was very near to having used them all. So, no matter how loud I yelled at my TV for Emily, it wasn't going to happen! Thanks for including facts-though I rarely let facts get in the way of my ill informed opinions. I find the middles/libero rotation totally befuddling. I thought middles/libero changes are not counted as substitutions since they are shown as "starters" but every time I read up on this issue I get more confused. Among the many related confusions, I get mixed up about when the libero is supposed to serve.
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Post by jojonito on Nov 27, 2018 1:22:42 GMT -5
In my defense, this was not a 20/20 hindsight comment. I was yelling at my TV before Serena served for Russ to sub in Emily. Serena had an 11% error rate 29 on 260 serves while Emily was at 3% with 3 errors on 100 serves. It just seemed that the pressure would have been heavy on Wisconsin's passers at that point. Good point! I had no idea that Emily was so good. Question - How many points does Serena get on her server? Granted, I would wager that Serena gets more aces than Emily, but my opinion, (not based on a lot but my observations which may be okay, mb not), is that there aren't a lot of points on Serena's serve (not including aces), cuz to me, she doesn't seem to be a very good back court defender. Course, one of the middles has to serve, so I guess that one of the middles will be serving and doing back row.
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Post by jojonito on Nov 27, 2018 1:27:22 GMT -5
Then I think there were 2 more counted when Serena returned when Kaitlyn moved to the back row. That is listed in the play-by-play as a Gray for Hord substitution. That whole area of the libero playing for both middles leaves me confused on this point. My understanding is that the libero substitutions for the middles doesn't count toward the 15 allowed substitutions.
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Post by seeyajohn on Nov 27, 2018 8:28:35 GMT -5
Then I think there were 2 more counted when Serena returned when Kaitlyn moved to the back row. That is listed in the play-by-play as a Gray for Hord substitution. That whole area of the libero playing for both middles leaves me confused on this point. My understanding is that the libero substitutions for the middles doesn't count toward the 15 allowed substitutions. Here is what I know and don't know. At the beginning of each match Kendall White subs in for Kaitlyn Hord and that does not count as a substitution. The only player who may sub in for Kendall is Kaitlyn and that does not count as a substitution. Kendall may replace anyone on the floor and that does not count as a substitution. Now, here is my problem. When Kaitlyn is playing front row Kendall is playing for Serena in the back row. When the time comes for Kaitlyn to rotate to the back row, Serena must reenter the game. So, Kaitlyn exits (because Kendall will play for her in the back row) and Serena enters. So that appears to be Serena subbing in for Kaitlyn. That's why I think it counts. Somebody on this board must know if it does?!?
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Post by seeyajohn on Nov 27, 2018 8:41:33 GMT -5
In my defense, this was not a 20/20 hindsight comment. I was yelling at my TV before Serena served for Russ to sub in Emily. Serena had an 11% error rate 29 on 260 serves while Emily was at 3% with 3 errors on 100 serves. It just seemed that the pressure would have been heavy on Wisconsin's passers at that point. Good point! I had no idea that Emily was so good. Question - How many points does Serena get on her server? Granted, I would wager that Serena gets more aces than Emily, but my opinion, (not based on a lot but my observations which may be okay, mb not), is that there aren't a lot of points on Serena's serve (not including aces), cuz to me, she doesn't seem to be a very good back court defender. Course, one of the middles has to serve, so I guess that one of the middles will be serving and doing back row. Actually, for the B1G season the team has scored 45.6% of the time on Serena's serve. That ranks her third highest among the starters behind Bryanna and Taylor. The team has been less successful on Emily's serve (although Emily subbed in for different players at different times) only winning the point 37.3% of the time. My thinking was that Emily's consistent serve would put pressure on Wisky while Serena's greater propensity to err put pressure on her. All of which, again, was moot because we were out of substitutions. (I think)
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Post by jojonito on Nov 27, 2018 10:35:37 GMT -5
Here's an example I found illustrating the libero substitution rule. It appears from this example that NO substitutions by the libero or middle blockers count toward the 15 substitution total. The URL is www.ncaa.com/news/volleyball-women/article/2018-08-29/college-volleyball-libero-explained"In Penn State’s opening match against Eastern Kentucky last Friday, middle blockers Serena Gray and Tori Gorrell were starters. Libero Kendall White, who is listed as a defensive specialist, went in for Gorrell before the first serve. When Gray served, Gorrell entered for White, since she is the only player that can replace the libero. Then White re-entered for Gray on the next rotation, which then made Gray the player who must replace White. When it was Gorrell’s turn to serve, Gray entered for Gorrell without a formal substitution and White went to the service line. That made Gorrell the next player that will replace White when it’s Gray’s turn to serve again. How can this happen? Well, what really happened was two libero substitutions in one action. Gray replaced White — since she was the only player that can replace the libero, per the rules outlined earlier — and White replaced Gorrell, which made Gorrell the only player to replace White." Seeyajohn, glad you brought this up as I hadn't really thought thru the libero substitutions and now i really (sorta really) understand it .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 10:46:48 GMT -5
Sounds like Chinese algebra to me.
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Post by jojonito on Nov 27, 2018 10:46:52 GMT -5
As far as when the libero serves, my impression is that the libero can serve for 1 of the middle blockers. I would guess it can be for either one. One middle blocker has to serve cuz the libero can't serve twice. So the coach designates which middle blocker he wants to serve. In that rotation the middle blocker (M1) that was in the front row serves while the other middle blocker (M2) blocks. In the PSU rotation, since Gray is the third best server, she usually starts in the front row and serves when she rotates out of the front row. Then when M2 (Hord) is ready to rotate out of the front row, Kendall serves for her. As we've seen Emily sometimes serves for Gray. The rule above explains why they go thru the shenanigans after Emily has served, of Gray then substituting for Emily and then White comes in for Gray. Clear as mud right ?
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Post by pointps on Nov 27, 2018 11:59:09 GMT -5
I'm in the process of creating a decision matrix to help us all on this substitution challenge. Get back to you after Christmas. Helping Google at the moment with their algorithms.
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Post by seeyajohn on Nov 27, 2018 12:39:42 GMT -5
Thanks jojonito! I think I'm getting closer to knowing how many substitutions Penn State used in the fifth set. My previous count was, "Blossom/Parker (4), Hampton/Reed (4), Leath/Cathey (4), earlier Sciorra/Gray (1) totaling 13". But I now think that Sciorra/Gray required 2 substitutions because Serena subbed back in so that Kendall could return for Serena as libero so that later Serena could move seamlessly to the front by replacing Kendall who then replaced Kaitlyn!!!!! I'm sure we all have that straight now. So my new conclusion is that Penn State had used 14 of its 15 substitutions when the score reached 19-18 with Serena serving. Assuming that is correct, then subbing in Emily would have been the 15th and last substitution. Well obviously that would be bad. Not only would that preclude any further back row substitutions (e.g. Jenna for Nia) but there is no way back in for Serena. The bottom line is that I need to learn this simple libero rule and quit yelling at my television!
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Post by nitneliun on Nov 27, 2018 13:10:45 GMT -5
My eyes glazed over more than a day ago.
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Post by jojonito on Nov 27, 2018 13:14:48 GMT -5
My eyes glazed over more than a day ago. But it's so interesting!!!
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Post by elliotberton on Nov 27, 2018 13:48:35 GMT -5
I appreciate the effort but remain fuzzy on this topic (and frankly on many other things too). Since there is no reduction in number of subs in Set 5, and Set 5 is only to 15, Coach has on occasion substituted more aggressively (eg: note who started Set 5 against Nebraska). When the Set went to deuce, that put us in a bind. Running out of subs is a bad thing (what happens if someone gets hurt and a team is out of subs?)
But it's ok to shout at your tv. No harm done. But I do recommend that you choose carefully when throwing things at it, since the result can be expensive!
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